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	<title>Comments on: Old Testament Politics&#8230;</title>
	<link>http://www.thoughtquotient.com/2004/10/26/old-testament-politics/</link>
	<description>Music - Media - Faith</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 03:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: s</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtquotient.com/2004/10/26/old-testament-politics/#comment-153</link>
		<dc:creator>s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Oct 2004 17:15:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.thoughtquotient.com/2004/10/26/old-testament-politics/#comment-153</guid>
		<description>I agree we are as idolatrous as we were it is just hidden in a Liberal defination of perversion. times havent changed just attitudes. i think we all should suspend judgement until Jesus comes back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree we are as idolatrous as we were it is just hidden in a Liberal defination of perversion. times havent changed just attitudes. i think we all should suspend judgement until Jesus comes back.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtquotient.com/2004/10/26/old-testament-politics/#comment-148</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:20:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.thoughtquotient.com/2004/10/26/old-testament-politics/#comment-148</guid>
		<description>*America is not Israel. It is not the holy land. It is not the promised land. It is not Gods kingdom on Earth. Yet Christians in this country behave as though it were so. Churches today preach American domination and superiority, and even wrap their crosses in the American flag. *

Forgive me, I am not short-winded.

I appreciate your passion for Christ over and above passion for a nation.  However, I maintain that nowhere in Scripture is strong nationalism condemned.  Idolatry is condemned.  I have yet to attend a church where "American domination" is preached - much less idolatry.  I think you are accepting a media-skewed perspective that the few churches who represent such beliefs are representative of the many.  Which is not true.

I agree with you that *if* an individual or church body is putting its faith in the United States over and above faith in our Lord, they have misplaced their faith and are engaging in idolatry.  I agree that *some* Christians have succumbed to this tendency.  I agree that God is bigger than our nation and is not some sort of patron God of the U.S.

At the same time, God *has* (at least in the past) been with our country through its establishment on Biblical and Godly principles.  God *has* blessed our nation, to deny such is to deny the sovereignty of God.  One might argue that Babylon was given much power as well - but we would do well to remember that Babylon was a nation "against" God as opposed to the United States which (at least at its inception) was founded on the principles of Judeo-Christianity.

Whether we like it or not (and regardless of whether we are good representatives of it) our country is recognized as *the* Christian nation in the world.  There can be little objection to this, and as such there are many parallels with Israel.  Though - as you correctly state - we are *not* Israel; the Church has been grafted into Israel (according to Scripture) and the United States is the primary representative (for better or worse) of the faith at this time and the primary source from which Christian ministries across the world draw and take example.  This would imply - though not necessarily prove - that God has chosen the United States for this specific time and purpose and that it is our responsibility as believers to guard and defend that purpose through our participation in our nation's political process and support of its international policies/actions as long as such activity is justified on Biblical principles.  To do otherwise is to refute and undermine the God's purpose through our country.

The church is *not* the United States, but the church does exist largely *within* the United States.  And the church - as a body of individual members in a democratic society - has a great deal of influence in the affairs of the United States.  Strong nationalism - if tempered in humility and nurtured under the authority and supremacy of God - would seem a wonderful thing in the hands of our sovereign and all-powerful God.


*They arent blinded by our nations power and glory, but we are.*

Power and glory are not inherently evil things.  In fact, Matthew 13:26 says or Lord Jesus Christ will come with with "great power and glory."  Rather, it is the manner in which they are wielded which determines whether they are good or evil.  To deride the United States because it has been given power and glory by God is a very ungrateful thing indeed.  

The United States has, unfortunately, not been completely innocent in its stewardship of the glory and power bestowed upon it by God.  At the same time, it has not been summarily unjust either and has done much good with that power and glory.  My concern is that in current days, we are straying further than ever toward the end of selfish rebellion against God and His will.  Which, by the way, is the ultimate purpose of idolatry - to worship the self and put off the constraints of God.  The phrase in Jeremiah 2:28, "...your gods that you have made for yourselves..." points out that idolatry is inherently a worship of self.  And the current trend in our culture is nothing if not self-worship.  

In the largest percentage of U.S. citizens, I think patriotism and nationalism are far from the primary concern.  It is rather the desire for accumulation of money, personal possessions and self-esteem that drives the majority of people in our society.  While we must be on guard against all forms of idolatry, I think of greater concern than nationalism is the idolatry of self-worship - as evidenced by our media, attitudes and habits as a nation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*America is not Israel. It is not the holy land. It is not the promised land. It is not Gods kingdom on Earth. Yet Christians in this country behave as though it were so. Churches today preach American domination and superiority, and even wrap their crosses in the American flag. *</p>
<p>Forgive me, I am not short-winded.</p>
<p>I appreciate your passion for Christ over and above passion for a nation.  However, I maintain that nowhere in Scripture is strong nationalism condemned.  Idolatry is condemned.  I have yet to attend a church where &#8220;American domination&#8221; is preached - much less idolatry.  I think you are accepting a media-skewed perspective that the few churches who represent such beliefs are representative of the many.  Which is not true.</p>
<p>I agree with you that *if* an individual or church body is putting its faith in the United States over and above faith in our Lord, they have misplaced their faith and are engaging in idolatry.  I agree that *some* Christians have succumbed to this tendency.  I agree that God is bigger than our nation and is not some sort of patron God of the U.S.</p>
<p>At the same time, God *has* (at least in the past) been with our country through its establishment on Biblical and Godly principles.  God *has* blessed our nation, to deny such is to deny the sovereignty of God.  One might argue that Babylon was given much power as well - but we would do well to remember that Babylon was a nation &#8220;against&#8221; God as opposed to the United States which (at least at its inception) was founded on the principles of Judeo-Christianity.</p>
<p>Whether we like it or not (and regardless of whether we are good representatives of it) our country is recognized as *the* Christian nation in the world.  There can be little objection to this, and as such there are many parallels with Israel.  Though - as you correctly state - we are *not* Israel; the Church has been grafted into Israel (according to Scripture) and the United States is the primary representative (for better or worse) of the faith at this time and the primary source from which Christian ministries across the world draw and take example.  This would imply - though not necessarily prove - that God has chosen the United States for this specific time and purpose and that it is our responsibility as believers to guard and defend that purpose through our participation in our nation&#8217;s political process and support of its international policies/actions as long as such activity is justified on Biblical principles.  To do otherwise is to refute and undermine the God&#8217;s purpose through our country.</p>
<p>The church is *not* the United States, but the church does exist largely *within* the United States.  And the church - as a body of individual members in a democratic society - has a great deal of influence in the affairs of the United States.  Strong nationalism - if tempered in humility and nurtured under the authority and supremacy of God - would seem a wonderful thing in the hands of our sovereign and all-powerful God.</p>
<p>*They arent blinded by our nations power and glory, but we are.*</p>
<p>Power and glory are not inherently evil things.  In fact, <a href="http://biblegateway.com/bible?version=65&amp;passage=Matthew+13%3A26" title="MSG Matthew 13:26">Matthew 13:26</a> says or Lord Jesus Christ will come with with &#8220;great power and glory.&#8221;  Rather, it is the manner in which they are wielded which determines whether they are good or evil.  To deride the United States because it has been given power and glory by God is a very ungrateful thing indeed.  </p>
<p>The United States has, unfortunately, not been completely innocent in its stewardship of the glory and power bestowed upon it by God.  At the same time, it has not been summarily unjust either and has done much good with that power and glory.  My concern is that in current days, we are straying further than ever toward the end of selfish rebellion against God and His will.  Which, by the way, is the ultimate purpose of idolatry - to worship the self and put off the constraints of God.  The phrase in <a href="http://biblegateway.com/bible?version=65&amp;passage=Jeremiah+2%3A28" title="MSG Jeremiah 2:28">Jeremiah 2:28</a>, &#8220;&#8230;your gods that you have made for yourselves&#8230;&#8221; points out that idolatry is inherently a worship of self.  And the current trend in our culture is nothing if not self-worship.  </p>
<p>In the largest percentage of U.S. citizens, I think patriotism and nationalism are far from the primary concern.  It is rather the desire for accumulation of money, personal possessions and self-esteem that drives the majority of people in our society.  While we must be on guard against all forms of idolatry, I think of greater concern than nationalism is the idolatry of self-worship - as evidenced by our media, attitudes and habits as a nation.</p>
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		<title>By: Drina</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtquotient.com/2004/10/26/old-testament-politics/#comment-147</link>
		<dc:creator>Drina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:05:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.thoughtquotient.com/2004/10/26/old-testament-politics/#comment-147</guid>
		<description>*I would say strong nationalism was one of the (if not the) defining characteristic of the nation of Israel!*

America is not Israel. It is not the holy land. It is not the promised land. It is not God's kingdom on Earth. Yet Christians in this country behave as though it were so. Churches today preach American domination and superiority, and even wrap their crosses in the American flag. 

Times haven't changed --we're still as idolotrous as we always were. Instead of Baal, we worship the power of the United States, a temporary nation that will someday pass away. And all along we believe Jesus is on our side, rooting for our country to win our political wars.

Although we start groups like "America for Jesus," our hearts harbor an attitude of "Jesus for America." It doesn't surprise me that other Christians around the world have denounced actions supported by so many US Christians. They aren't blinded by our nation's power and glory, but we are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*I would say strong nationalism was one of the (if not the) defining characteristic of the nation of Israel!*</p>
<p>America is not Israel. It is not the holy land. It is not the promised land. It is not God&#8217;s kingdom on Earth. Yet Christians in this country behave as though it were so. Churches today preach American domination and superiority, and even wrap their crosses in the American flag. </p>
<p>Times haven&#8217;t changed &#8211;we&#8217;re still as idolotrous as we always were. Instead of Baal, we worship the power of the United States, a temporary nation that will someday pass away. And all along we believe Jesus is on our side, rooting for our country to win our political wars.</p>
<p>Although we start groups like &#8220;America for Jesus,&#8221; our hearts harbor an attitude of &#8220;Jesus for America.&#8221; It doesn&#8217;t surprise me that other Christians around the world have denounced actions supported by so many US Christians. They aren&#8217;t blinded by our nation&#8217;s power and glory, but we are.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtquotient.com/2004/10/26/old-testament-politics/#comment-146</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:19:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.thoughtquotient.com/2004/10/26/old-testament-politics/#comment-146</guid>
		<description>I would say strong "nationalism" was one of the (if not the) defining characteristic of the nation of Israel!  Nationalism is not an inherently evil/sinful thing.  It only becomes sinful when the nation is raised "above" God.  That doesn't seem to be the case with most conservative Christians that I know.

As for worship of power, control, politics and money.  Those would be the defining sinful characteristics of rebellious humanity, and it is obvious that they are dividing equally among all political parties.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would say strong &#8220;nationalism&#8221; was one of the (if not the) defining characteristic of the nation of Israel!  Nationalism is not an inherently evil/sinful thing.  It only becomes sinful when the nation is raised &#8220;above&#8221; God.  That doesn&#8217;t seem to be the case with most conservative Christians that I know.</p>
<p>As for worship of power, control, politics and money.  Those would be the defining sinful characteristics of rebellious humanity, and it is obvious that they are dividing equally among all political parties.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtquotient.com/2004/10/26/old-testament-politics/#comment-145</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:10:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.thoughtquotient.com/2004/10/26/old-testament-politics/#comment-145</guid>
		<description>You bring up a good question!  However, if you'll spend some time reading the Old Testament, there was a strong nationalism within the nation of Israel.  They believed (and the Bible agrees with them) that they were the chosen nation of Israel - above all others.  They believed strongly in their nation, but they knew God was more powerful than their nation.  So, there is nothing inherently wrong with strong nationalism as long as we keep the perspective that God is sovereign over all nations and over every individual.  

Worship of power, control, politics and money are, without doubt, some of the biggest issues in our culture.  They are the same sins mankind has struggled with since original sin.  The point we must realize is that those sins are equally prevalent in both political camps.  I would be happy to elaborate if I had more space, but I think the evidence is obvious.  That being the case, we are in the best position if we make our decisions based on the issues and responses that - in large part - "identify" each party and their positions.

Power/control-hungry people dominate both parties.  But infanticide (pro-abortion support) and promotion of the homosexual agenda have become part of the platform of the Democratic party.  They have become an identifying characteristic of a large portion of the party and certainly its presidential candidate.  I must make my decision on those "identifying" characteristics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You bring up a good question!  However, if you&#8217;ll spend some time reading the Old Testament, there was a strong nationalism within the nation of Israel.  They believed (and the Bible agrees with them) that they were the chosen nation of Israel - above all others.  They believed strongly in their nation, but they knew God was more powerful than their nation.  So, there is nothing inherently wrong with strong nationalism as long as we keep the perspective that God is sovereign over all nations and over every individual.  </p>
<p>Worship of power, control, politics and money are, without doubt, some of the biggest issues in our culture.  They are the same sins mankind has struggled with since original sin.  The point we must realize is that those sins are equally prevalent in both political camps.  I would be happy to elaborate if I had more space, but I think the evidence is obvious.  That being the case, we are in the best position if we make our decisions based on the issues and responses that - in large part - &#8220;identify&#8221; each party and their positions.</p>
<p>Power/control-hungry people dominate both parties.  But infanticide (pro-abortion support) and promotion of the homosexual agenda have become part of the platform of the Democratic party.  They have become an identifying characteristic of a large portion of the party and certainly its presidential candidate.  I must make my decision on those &#8220;identifying&#8221; characteristics.</p>
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		<title>By: Drina</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtquotient.com/2004/10/26/old-testament-politics/#comment-144</link>
		<dc:creator>Drina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:53:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.thoughtquotient.com/2004/10/26/old-testament-politics/#comment-144</guid>
		<description>What about the idolatry of our nationalism? Or worship of power, control, politics and money?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about the idolatry of our nationalism? Or worship of power, control, politics and money?</p>
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